Talk:Plan Kathleen

This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Military history: British / European / World War II

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion not met

Associated task forces:
/
	British military history task force
	European military history task force
	World War II task force

Irish republicanism

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Irish republicanism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Irish republicanism and Irish nationalism related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Irish republicanismWikipedia:WikiProject Irish republicanismTemplate:WikiProject Irish republicanismIrish republicanism articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Northern Ireland

	Northern Ireland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Northern IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject Northern IrelandTemplate:WikiProject Northern IrelandNorthern Ireland-related articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
	This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the `\|auto=` parameter.

Ireland Low‑importance

	Ireland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article has been marked as needing an infobox.
	An image is requested for this article as its inclusion will substantially increase the significance of the article. Please remove the `image-needed` parameter once the image is added.

Name

This article just drops Görtz's name without saying who he actually is...--72.226.105.188 00:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NIcely done! It is not often I encounter a new codename. Great job!

Paul, in Saudi

I don't think this "Operation Arthur/Artur" existed. I have checked 4 books on the subject for comfirmation of its existance and it doesn't appear in any of them.

The Secret Army: The Ira 1916-1979 - J. Bowyer Bell (1971)
Irish Secrets - German Espionage in wartime Ireland 1939-1945 - Mark M. Hall (2003)
The Shamrock and the Swastika - German Espionage in Ireland in WW2 - Carolle J. Carter (1977)
Spies in Ireland - Enno Stephan (1963)

The non-appearance of "Operation Artur" in Stephan & Halls books is the clincher for me. Stephans book, first published in German, was the first to examine and document the Abwehr wardiaries plus he actually interviewed some of the participants in Abwehr/IRA collaboration. If it doesn't appear in there, then where should it appear?

An "Operation" which neatly deposits a whole series of Abwehr/IRA collaborations and miscellanous episodes and characters, (eg. Francis Stuart), into a single entry, and it can't be traced through 4 studies into German Intelligence ops in Ireland? Let me know if this Operation Artur appears somewhere in something you have been reading.

What also makes me suspicious of this entry is that only 1 of a whole series of actual/discussed Abwehr/IRA collaborations are mentioned by their codenames, plus the entire piece doesnt reference a source.

I would like to see this article removed and replaced with an overview linking to Operations that are documented in the books;

Operation Taube
Operation Innkeeper
Operation Lobster I
Operation Lobster II
Operation Mainau
Operation Sea Eagle
Operation Seagull II
Operation Whale
FALL GRUN
Plan Kathleen

Fluffy999 23:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Making this page obsolete by putting the accurate detail contained in the article into the corresponding "Operations" where they belong. Operation Lobster I complete- that eliminates the need for this paragraph (which was misleading and inaccurate):

"In July, 1940, German agents Henry Obed, Herbert Tributh and Otto Dietergaertner were landed by small boat in Skibbereen, county Cork, Ireland. All three had been trained by Lehr Regiment Brandenburg, a unit specialising in sabotage behind enemy lines. Their purpose was to make contact with the IRA and to then travel to England to destroy Buckingham Palace using explosive nitro-cellulose. Although all three were eventually arrested by the Garda Síochána (Irish police) before reaching England, it exposed to British Intelligence (MI5) a wider network of sabotage activities of joint IRA and German actions from neutral Ireland."

Completed work on S-Plan and Frank Ryan articles which eliminates this paragraph, (which was misleading and inaccurate):

"In August 1940, a campaign to target British interests in Ireland had been conceived by Seán Russell, chief-of-staff of the IRA and presented to German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop and Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of the Abwehr. Russell requested explosives, guns, and transmitting equipment for a campaign to initiate in November, 1940. Russell, who had been out of Ireland before the war to avoid arrest, would return in a U-boat, U65, and land at Smerwick Harbour, County Kerry, from Wilhelmshaven, Germany on August 8, 1940 under the codename Taube ("Dove"). Russell died on August 14, 1940 before reaching Ireland and the plan was left to the IRA's Frank Ryan, who decided not to return to Ireland but instead co-ordinate the bombing campaign from Germany and to plan for Taube II."

Fluffy999 02:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Finally discovered what this is 'meant' to refer to. It is meant to refer to the plan drawn up by acting IRA Chief of Staff Stephen Hayes while Sean Russell was in USA and sent to Germany carried by Stephen Held (not to be confused with V-Held codename for Seamus O'Donovan). Stephen Held arrives on 20 April 1940, and left on 23 April 1940.

On Helds arrival and delivery of the Hayes plan the Abwehr codenamed it "Plan Kathleen". The German Foreign Ministry later labeled it "Plan ArtuS". Needless to say the rest of the details in this article are just as inaccurate. What is sad is that its now mirrored all over the internet as fact and referred to in 6 wikipedia articles. Nice POV piece established as fact- well done all concerned.

Fluffy999 16:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

updated the article with the facts, and will also include the Kurt Student aspect of this- another source of confusion about the episode Fluffy999 18:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]