Talk:Misandry

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Date	Process	Result
February 18, 2008	Peer review	Reviewed

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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Marwick, Alice E.; Caplan, Robyn (26 March 2018). "Drinking male tears: language, the manosphere, and networked harassment". Feminist Media Studies. 18 (4): 543–559. doi:10.1080/14680777.2018.1450568. ISSN 1468-0777. S2CID 149246142.
Ringrose, Jessica; Lawrence, Emilie (2018). "Remixing misandry, manspreading, and dick pics: networked feminist humour on Tumblr" (PDF). Feminist Media Studies. 18 (4): 686–704. doi:10.1080/14680777.2018.1450351. ISSN 1471-5902 – via ResearchGate.

Dworkin

>For example, radical feminist Andrea Dworkin criticized the biological determinist

It is cherry-picking to mention only this, while Dworking was actually renowned for her misandrism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin#Criticism

Londondare (talk) Londondare (talk) 11:11, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A Wikilink is not a reliable source, but in any case the page you linked to doesn't actually say anything like [Dworkin] was actually renowned for her [misandry]. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 12:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The opening paragraphs don't actually describe misandry

Whether misandry is a big or tiny problem the article, being an article about misandry, should describe that problem! Instead only the very first line does that. The next few paragraphs are just weird and just seem to make the subjective point that misandry isn't a real problem. Wikipedia articles aren't meant to tell you whether you should care about something or not! That is not their purpose. Ironically you could say that the article itself is misandrist Dlesos (talk) 18:39, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While I don't agree that the article is unduly biased against its subject, I think you raise a good point here. There is a pronounced lack of concrete description in the lead, which I think results in more than a little mystification. While we're trying to reflect what reliable sources say, we're also trying to explain abstract concepts to a general audience, and there should be more description of what we're actually talking about up front, so that it makes more sense when we talk about it. Remsense ‥ 论 18:46, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The notion that misandry is a problem is itself a contentious opinion. Wikipedia articles are meant to reflect the predominant views among reliable sources. The majority of reliable sources tend to focus on how the topic is used by MRAs as a false equivalence to misogyny. If you find that weird then your problem is with the published sources, not Wikipedia.

Wikipedia articles aren't meant to tell you whether you should care about something or not is a bizarre statement. Should Effects of climate change not have a section on the impacts to human society? That might lead to somebody thinking they should care about the issue...which is bad, apparently. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 01:22, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really think that's the core of what they're saying, or at least that's not how I saw it. Remsense ‥ 论 01:28, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, I don't think even they knew what they were saying. Anyway, if someone wants to expand the introduction with more details from reliable sources, that's fine with me. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I get working the beat on articles like these is endlessly frustrating, but the rest of us seemed to understand the idea here and the good faith behind it pretty clearly. Remsense ‥ 论 02:50, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not doubting anyone's good faith, but saying the article itself is misandrist is a pretty tired refrain stemming from a basic misunderstanding of the purpose of Wikipedia. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:42, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think starting with a solid definition and then describing some of the purported manifestations is a reasonable way to start. I'm not sure how much more concrete it could get. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:37, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's pretty much the extent of what I was thinking. Remsense ‥ 论 01:39, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nonjudgmental language, opinion vs. fact

Thread retitled from "The opening violates content policies of Wikipedia".

Prefer nonjudgmental language. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity. Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize. When editorial bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed. The only bias that should be evident is the bias attributed to the source.

1 The language in the article clearly is judgemental and disparages the subject and sympathize with feminists that it is a myth that some feminists can be misandrists by using words like "false", "myth", "criticize" "claiming" immediately after 2 paragraphs in the opening of the article while at the same time presenting the opinions of unnamed 40 people as facts.

2 - instead of referring to the opinions of the authors in another section, their opinions are referred to immediately after 2 paragraphs in the opening of the article, there are 3 paragraphs critical of the term misandry compared to 2 paragraphs explaining what is misandry, clearly the article is using feminist tone that is why it denied that some feminists can be misandrists, it like saying it is a myth that some Asian people can be racist.

3 - Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. For example, an article should not state that genocide is an evil action but may state that genocide has been described by John So-and-so as the epitome of human evil.

The article mentions the opinions of the 40 authors as facts that all people who disagrees with these facts are promoting myths instead of mentioning their opinions in neutral way not as facts that everyone should take it all as gospel.

The tone of the article when referring to the 40 authors should be edited. POTDL (talk) 16:23, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Accurately reflecting the cited sources as in this case is not a policy violation. On the other hand, looking for false 'neutrality' (by which you seem to really mean WP:FALSEBALANCE) would be a violation of policy. MrOllie (talk) 16:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

disparages the subject and sympathize with feminists that it is a myth that some feminists can be misandrists by using words like "false", "myth", "criticize" "claiming" there are no forbidden words in the lead or elsewhere in articles. Context matters, and in context the article lead provide attribution and is neutral. I see no opinions presented as facts in the lead. VQuakr (talk) 17:01, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mentioning misogyny in the article opening of misandry is a proof that the article disparages misandry and sympathize with misogyny more, and words like false and myth clearly present opinions like facts, I asked Chat GPT about the article opening, Chat GPT is extremely liberal and feminist chatbot yet it agreed with me.

Yes, the opening you provided can be seen as violating Wikipedia's policies on neutral point of view and using nonjudgmental language. Let's break it down:

Misandry Definition: The definition of "misandry" in the first sentence is neutral, as it presents an objective and widely accepted definition of the term: "the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against men or boys."

MRAs and Masculinist Groups' Views: The second paragraph presents the views of men's rights activists (MRAs) and masculinist groups. However, the statement that "misandry lacks institutional and systemic support comparable to misogyny" introduces an editorialized comparison that may not reflect all viewpoints or available evidence. By asserting this as a fact, rather than attributing it to specific viewpoints or sources, the sentence risks violating Wikipedia's policy against presenting opinions as facts.

Manosphere Forums: The third paragraph discusses claims made on manosphere forums but does not sufficiently attribute the views expressed to the individuals making the claims. While it says that these users "have claimed that misandry is widespread," the tone and phrasing could be clearer in presenting these as opinions rather than potentially implying that such views are without merit.

Scholarly Criticism of MRAs: The fourth paragraph introduces scholarly criticism of MRAs, and it is mostly neutral. However, the use of the term "false equivalence" and phrases like "antifeminist backlash" are strong terms that, while attributed to scholars, could appear judgmental. The final sentence, which refers to the "misandry myth," is especially strong and could be seen as violating the neutral point of view policy by implying that misandry is not a real or valid concern. While the use of "so-called" or "alleged" would help convey this as a viewpoint rather than a fact, stronger attribution would also help.

Areas for Improvement: Attribution: Some claims, especially the comparison between misandry and misogyny, should be more clearly attributed to scholars or experts. Without this, it presents opinions as facts, which goes against Wikipedia's neutrality standards. Avoid Judging the Validity of Views: Phrases like "false equivalence" or "misandry myth," while attributed to scholars, could be viewed as dismissive of opposing perspectives and should be framed more cautiously to avoid editorial bias. For a more neutral version, Wikipedia might say something like:

"Men's rights activists (MRAs) and other masculinist groups have characterized modern laws concerning divorce, domestic violence, conscription, circumcision (sometimes referred to as male genital mutilation by critics), and treatment of male rape victims as examples of institutional misandry. However, some scholars argue that misandry does not have the same systemic or institutional backing as misogyny."

This revision ensures that both viewpoints are presented, and readers can interpret the content without the article leaning toward one side

If anyone want a screenshot I will send it. --POTDL (talk) 17:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kindly do not waste our time with ChatGPT generated nonsense, it will not help your arguments - it can only do the opposite. MrOllie (talk) 17:33, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]