Talk:Hasan-i Sabbah

Training of the Assassins

Question: would it be more accurate to say from William of Tyre's accounts onward he was known as the Old Man of the Mountain? He seemed to have coined the term before Polo, and the page for Order of Assassins places Tyre as a greater influence. Don't know enough about the history to say which one was actually more influential and if saying it first matters more, just a thought. –Anon

I've read in several places (among them, Wikipedia itself) that the Hashish story was a myth, invented by Marco Polo. Can anyone doublecheck? --Anon.

Well Maulvi Abdul Haleem Sharar, 18 century Urdu fiction writer has called them this in his "Firdaus-e-BarreeN" and I doubt he had read or been influenced by Marco Polo. In any case the followers of Ibn Saba believed that the Shariah was not for "True Lover of Allah" like he and his followers and they they drank wine and smoked hashish and shared women. They were generally a licentious group, except that "The Old man of the mountain" had to be followed in all matters. Followers of Agha Khan are known for drinking, even today.

--HussaynKhariq 20:40, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, as you say - Maulvi Abdul Haleem Sharar was a "fiction" writer, so all these myths about the paradisal garden and hashish smoking is fiction too! As for Ibn Sabah, it is said that he killed his own son for drinking wine, therefore, this is probably more in line with his stance on alcohol. In addition, these myths were all written and solicited by Christian and Sunni Muslim enemies and oppressors of the Nizari Ismailis, therefore, it should be understood that no original Nizari Ismaili literature (that which has survived) supports these allegations. Finally, I am a follower of the Aga Khan, and I do NOT drink alcohol nor partake in drugs/cigarettes as per my belief in Islam. - [User:Karim Hassan/New York - 10 May 2006]

Sorry, it is not possible to just "doublecheck" because AFAIK no one today knows the truth.

• If this story of hashish and secret pleasure garden imitating Paradise was true, you can expect that it was kept secret, otherwise the whole device would lose its effectiveness. Furthermore, Alamut and its library was thoroughly destroyed by the Mongols. so very difficult to get hard evidence.
• it is quite possible that hashish, opium, or alcohol was used as part of an elaborate mental conditioning . On the other hand, the recent history of terrorism shows us that you don't need to be drugged to commit suicide attacks.
• based on the known dates, it is not clear if Marco Polo was able to visit Alamut before its destruction.

furthermore, according to the online book I linked on the related article page, it is only after a religious revolution* in Alamut that occured 2 generations after Hassan's death that alcohol was allowed.

--TahitiB 21:28, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

this was the proclamation of the "Millennium"

I guess you are referring to what took place when Hasan II came to power on Muhammed's death in 1162 there? --Rhwawn (talk to Rhwawn) 03:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The Marco Polo story of the garden is of course a legend with no basis in reality. The Wiki article really needs to be totally rewritten but I don't have time to do this at present so I've just modified it a bit to correct the more egregious errors. Anyone interested in the subject: please see my online book The Assassins of Alamut. Acampbell70 12:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, I would tend to agree with you, but not for the reasons outlined in your work (that is, incredulity), but because the climate of Alamut just doesn't seem to allow for such a garden and there's no obvious location for it. Plus, it just doesn't seem like Sabah to me. --Rhwawn (talk to Rhwawn) 03:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The use of Hasish, Gardens, and women are considered polemic by the vast majority of modern scholors, along with texts which claimed Isma'ili kidnapp children and sacricfice them in rituals. I am happy to quote several sources. Therefore I would like to re-title this section under a new title refering to them as myths. Are there any objections?--86.146.0.135 00:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding HasanII, Isma'ili have a different take on his leadership, as an Isma'ili I would like to add our persective on him, to contrast the other side and maintain POV. However I think references to Hasan II, to be short since this article deals with Hassan I sabbah, any objections?--86.146.0.135 00:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Polo's original text, FYI

In the interests of helping out in this conversation, what follows is what Polo said, courtesy of Project Gutenberg. --Rhwawn (talk to Rhwawn) 03:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

"HOW THE OLD MAN USED TO TRAIN HIS ASSASSINS."

"When therefore they awoke, and found themselves in a place so charming, they deemed that it was Paradise in very truth. And the ladies and damsels dallied with them to their hearts' content, so that they had what young men would have; and with their own good will they never would have quitted the place."

"Now this Prince whom we call the Old One kept his Court in grand and noble style, and made those simple hill-folks about him believe firmly that he was a great Prophet. And when he wanted one of his _Ashishin_ to send on any mission, he would cause that potion whereof I spoke to be given to one of the youths in the garden, and then had him carried into his Palace. So when the young man awoke, he found himself in the Castle, and no longer in that Paradise; whereat he was not over well pleased. He was then conducted to the Old Man's presence, and bowed before him with great veneration as believing himself to be in the presence of a true Prophet. The Prince would then ask whence he came, and he would reply that he came from Paradise! and that it was exactly such as Mahommet had described it in the Law. This of course gave the others who stood by, and who had not been admitted, the greatest desire to enter therein."[1]

Nihilism

Is there any evidence that Hassan-i Sabah ever said "Nothing is true; everything is permitted", or is that just something Burroughs made up? --Anon.

Interestingly, yes, but the source is so hideously biased that there's no point in arguing about it.

Specifically, we can thank the Sunni historian Juvaini who records a great deal about Hasan (and the Assassins in general, of course), from his perspective as Hulagu Khan's pet historian who was allowed to talk to prisoners and catalogue (for destruction) Alamut's library.

Presumably he knew what he was talking about, but unfortunately he was Sunni and so a wee bit biased (for example, if Enno Franzius's "History of the Order of Assassins" which I'm currently using while I track down an English translation of Juvaini's work is accurate, Juvaini suffixed the obituary of each Assassin leader with a mention of how they were writhing in Hell). --Rhwawn (talk to Rhwawn) 03:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting of you to say 'Sunni', especially since Hulagu killed and massacred tens of thousands of innocen Sunni women and children, Hulagu had Persian Shi'a advisors, who gladly told him not to worry about massacring the civilians in Baghdad and that the world will not end if the incompetent Abbassid ruler was killed...get your history right, please. Hulagu's advisors and 'pet historians' were Shi'a not Sunni. 195.229.241.181

In all fairness though Hulaku was not himself a Muslim. For most of his life he claimed to be a Christian of sorts though at the end of his life he converted to Buddhism and therefore killing Muslims was the same regardless of what sect they belonged just as Hitler never cared if a Jew was an orthodox or a Messianic Jew. As for Juvaini it really doesn't matter if he was Shi'a or Sunni. The Assassin order was a breakaway from the Shi'a and would have been viewed no differently from the perspective of a traditional Shi'a as they would have by a Sunni.143.79.13.6 (talk) 16:16, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Isn't the phrase 'Nothing is true; everything is permitted' one used by Aleister Crowley's Thelema movement? ThePeg 17:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that phrase is most popular amongst persons like Peter Lamborn Wilson or Robert Anton Wilson. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Thelemic motto was "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.", was it not? --Gwern (contribs) 20:18 24 January 2007 (GMT)

Nietzsche also credited the Assassins with "Nothing is true; everything is permitted", just for the record. --217.84.11.221 (talk) 08:55, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Section ordering

I am a little concerned about the fact that the "Life and Work" and "Ismaili Perspective" sections are separate from one another. By doing so, instead of creating a neutral point of view about Hassan-i-Sabbah, one instead creates two opposing and drastically different views about the subject. Furthermore, the "Ismaili Perspective" appears to be discredited by the the fact that that it is under a separate section from the "Life and Work", which makes it seems that the first section is correct and the Ismaili section is not. I know that this was not the objective, but that is just how it comes across. Perhaps something should be done to merge the two articles. Suggestions are welcome. --R.suleman 02:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely - the 'Hashish' story is a myth. The most authoritative work on the 'Assassins' is by Dr. Farhad Daftary - The Assassin Legends: Myths of the Isma‘ilis, London: I. B. Tauris, 1994; reprinted 2001.. This is the best work, as it references the greatest number of primary sources. The largest collection of manuscripts regarding the Ismailis can be found at the Institute of Ismaili Studies in London [2] where Daftary is a director. They have a short paper on the book on their web-site which is well worth reading (and should be a reference to whomever is going to re-do this article) [3]. -- anonymous 28 March 2006

A very good point. I was mystified by the tone of this article. The first half of this article seems to be an almost adoring portrait of what seems like an impressive man dedicated to a search for spiritual truth and honour (if a little harsh and austere here and there!). The second suggests he and his followers were just ruthless killers. Very disorientating. ThePeg 17:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Assassins

This whole section seems dramatized and possibly plagarized. Also it contradicts other parts of the page when it says that they smoked Hashish. I would recommend getting rid of that section all together but someone may want to salvage it.--216.162.88.226 17:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

At the very least it is redundant with some parts. I'll trim it sometime soon. --SparqMan 23:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Spelling consistency

The name "Hassan" is spelled in (at least) three different ways (Hassan, Hasan, Hæsæn), for no apparent reason (at least to me). Is that deliberate/proper?

[Might I suggest that one spelling be selected and the others, if at all valid, be mentioned in parentheses probably before the persian).]

-- 213.84.38.42 06:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

General Messiness Concerns

With all due respect (and there is plenty, given the length of this article), this article is biased and its references are properly unmade. I have done a tiny part in correcting this; I may due further work on this article, or I may not. Take upon thine-on-self. Jpipkin42000 10:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Title

The title for this article seems to be incorrect (although with the complete lack of reference, it's not the only thing wrong with it!) "Hassan-i-Sabah" makes it sound like it's one-word. But from the Persian, I can only assume that the correct spelling should be Hassen-i Sabbah, or Hassan-e Sabbah.

Google search:

• "Hassan-i-Sabah" - 602
• "Hassan-i-Sabbah" - 47,000
• "Hassan-e Sabbah" - 157
• "Hassan Sabbah" - 14,000
• "Hassan Ibn Sabbah" - 4,660
• "Hasan-i Sabah" - 2,410

So my assumptions seem to be correct that at the moment, the title needs changing, I propose that it should be changed to "Hassan Sabbah" or "Hassan-i Sabbah" --Rayis 23:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Citations?

Where are all the citations for the bold statements about Hassan-I Sabbah? There are, as mentioned, many contradictory statements in this article, none of which seem to be supported by any references that I can see. If the use of hashish by his followers is controversial or untrue, it would help to put it in a separate section under "legends concerning Hassan-I Sabbah" or something similar, and please, cite the information allowing one to say that these are just legends. The fact that similar statements regarding the man are made in different sections, but with different editorial spins on them, only helps to confound the reader. Hassan-I Sabbah is an interesting character; it would be nice to see an entry here that actually can help shed some light on him without these problems obscuring the entry to no end.

The "Hassan in popular culture" section has become trivial and ridiculous

I'm going to be bold and dramatically trim the trivia section. I don't think we need to list every instance in which the name "Hassan-i Sabbah" is used in popular literature, movies, games, etc.... A book which names a character "Hassan-i Sabbah", but represents him in a historically inaccurate manner is not describing the Hassan-i Sabbah of this article, and thus it does not belong here. The same goes for video games. Basically, this section is just junking up the article and is very unencyclopedic. Per WP:TRIVIA, please feel free to re-add the information if it can be incorporated in the main body of the text. AlphaEta 04:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Arab Father

It is clearly stated in most sources present in this article that his father was an Arab (and claimed Yemeni decent (as with the Early Life section. Why on Earth does it mention he is a Persian in the text? Is this more changing of historical alterations, inaccuracies and denial by Persian Nationalists for their racist agendas? Being born in Persia by no means makes him a Persian. As presented by such people in discussions with the case of Avicenna, Arabisation, language and generally taking up of a new ethnic identity halfway through life does not count for anything - a person's ethnicity counts on there geneological origin. So using that same logic, that makes Hassan-i Sabbah an Arab due to his father's (claimed) geneology, so I changed the opening intro. Please discuss here before changing if you disagree, as my claims are sources by the very sources those Persian Nationalists used for their ridiculous claims. Peace. SaSH (talk) 11:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I can agree with your statement. Lewis, Bernard, The Assassins, a radical sect in Islam (New York, 1968) says: Hasan was born in Qumm, one of the first centres of Arab settlement in Persia. His father, a Twelver Shi'ite had come from Kufa in Iraq and was said to be of Yemini origin, a descant of the ancient Himyaritic kings of Southern Arabia. So, yes his father was an Arab.

--H. 12:40 26 september 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 10:41, 26 September 2011 (UTC).

• He was of half-semitic origin, but not Arabic. His father was of European and Christian origin in fact, but had known as a Persian-man and served a secret Masonic organization. His mother was of Jewish origin in fact but known as Arabic origin. Sabbah was a special man educated by this secret Masonic organization and his duty was to create an intensive tension between the people of Turkic origin and the people of Persian origin. In those times the army and some civilian governors were of Turkic origin and some other civilian governors and most of the bureaucrats were of Persian origin. The Persians lived in some several places of the Iran while the Turks lived others. His aim was to decelerate the progression of the Seljukians and inhibit the Turkmen invasion to the Anatolian peninsula. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.165.15.105 (talk) 21:25, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to disappoint you but the only "fact" here is that he was born in Persia to Iranian parents. His father's claim of being Yemenite doesn't change that. His mother was not jewish, but Persian, and his father was most probably Persian also. In those times it was popular to pass oneself as an Arab because of the tyranny the Arabs had introduced in those regions. And the only source of the Yemenite claim is from Encyclopedia Iranica, which most of this article is written from. Except of course parts where it says that Hassan-e Sabbah tried replacing Arabic with Persian in all his and his follower's writings. SomeGuy1122 (talk) 04:33, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Read the source. Qom was a centre of ARAB settlement. His father was an immigrant to Persia from an Arab city, Kufa. He claimed Yemenite descent, thus a Qahtanite Arab. His mother was also Arab. Stop trying to pervert facts and history to gain false glory to the Persian people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.225.88 (talk) 23:11, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Its really ironic calling us racists. His mother was persian and through the process of growing up in iran he was culturally persianised like the timurids 2.185.213.206 (talk) 14:10, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Major Excision

Removed entire "Legacy" section. The documentation was not from good primary sources. Most 'information' was speculation, POV, and some was propaganda. There is plenty of good source material in the "Reference" and "Further Reading" sections. Tapered (talk) 10:21, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Recent unexplained deletions/changes

I have reverted recent unexplained deletions/changes. After some searching I found no reliable source stating Hassan as Persian. Therefore, I will be taking information from Lewis and Daftary sources stating Yemeni/Arab. If there are any concerns over this issue, I would expect a discussion before any changes to his ethnicity. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:13, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Per user:Aretemetic's latest edit using, Rashid ud-din Fazalellah 'Jame-ut-Tawrikh', pg. 1, appears to be a fake source. I seriously doubt that the Jami ut Tawrikh mentions Hassan-i Sabbah on page 1!!! --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

He is Persian not Arab

As it is clear he was born in Qom, And Qom is a city in Iran, and people who born in Iran are obviously Persian not Arabs, So he is Persian not Arab ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhviraf (talk • contribs) 18:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

So you changed the referenced quote to reflect your opinion? That is original research, as if you didn't know....

Farhad Daftary, The Isma'ilis: Their History and Doctrines, (Cambridge University Press, 2007), 311;"Hasan was born in the mid-1050s in Qumm into a Twelver Shi'i family. His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad b Ja'far b. al-Husayn b. Muhammad b al-Sabbah al-Himyari, a Kufan Arab claiming Yamani origins..." --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Claiming that Sabbah is either Arab or Persian is tendentious. Only known is that family was from Kufa and later moved to central Iran. Assuming that Kufan is Arab isn't much right, that city was inhabited by both Arabs and Persians (Abu Hanifa is most famous). We also know that his father claimed Yamanite origin. Note "claimed" and "Yamanite" (not Yemenite) in English book where actually don't mention Arab as Kansas bolded (Daftary, p. 123). Yamani is important figure in Shia eschatology and such claiming origins was common in past as much as today - many Persian Shia clerics like "Mousavis" claim origin from twelver Imams who were Arabs, but that doesn't make them Arab. The same goes for Hassan's father. He's Kufan for sure, but ethnic origins (Arab/Persian/other) are unknown. Both sides can insert some 6-7 sources about his being "Persian" or "Arab" to prove their pov, but such books deal little with his origins. Intro with "a Nizārī missionary" is enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.172.48 (talk) 07:00, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

p.s. I also removed note that he was born in Persian Empire. In Buyyid case "empire" is problematic, and in Seljuk case "Persian". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.165.172.48 (talk) 07:08, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I see nothing that supports Persian ethnicity. Continued removal of referenced information is disruptive editing. "His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad b Ja'far b. al-Husayn b. Muhammad b al-Sabbah al-Himyari, a Kufan Arab..." FYI, this is the book, Farhad Daftary, The Isma'ilis: Their History and Doctrines, (Cambridge University Press, 2007), 311; and it is on page 311 not 123.[4] --Kansas Bear (talk) 07:23, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Now this is funny, because I assumed precisely the same for you. It was my right because:

"His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad al-Sabbah al-Himyarl, a Kufan claiming Himyarl Yamani origins..." - Farhad Daftary, A Short History of the Ismailis, Edinburgh University Press, 1998, page 123 [5]

"His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad b. Ja'far b. al-Husayn b. Muhammad b. al- Sabbah al-Himyari, a Kufan claiming Himyari Yamani origins..." - Farhad Daftary, Ismailis in Medieval Muslim Societies, I. B. Tauris, 2005, page 127 [6]

"His father, ʿAli b. Moḥammad b. Jaʿfar al-Ṣabbāḥ al-Ḥemyari, a Kufan claiming Ḥemyari Yemenite origins..." - Farhad Daftary, Ḥasan Ṣabbāḥ, Encyclopedia Iranica, 2003/2012 [7]

"His father, ʿAli b. Moḥammad b. Ja'far al-Sabbah, a Kufan claiming Yamani origins..." - Farhad Daftary, Hassan-i Sabbah in Medieval Islamic Civilization: A-K, index, Taylor & Francis, 2006

"His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad b Ja'far b. al-Husayn b. Muhammad b al-Sabbah al-Himyari, a Kufan claiming..." - Farhad Daftary, Mediaeval Isma'ili History and Thought, Cambridge University Press, 1996, page 187 [8]

Five scholary sources, same author, almost identhical sentence, and all without "Arab" word. So I still say edit by Kansas was wrong, it was surely done in good faith but now article version is tendentious. Since all works are avaliable online you can check that Mr. Daftary don't call Hassan as either Arab or Persian, he clearly states everywhere that little information is available on his early life. Some argued that he was Persian because Qom is Persian city and because he replaced Arabic with Persian as the religious language. This informations are correct but still not proof of his Persian ethnicity. Daftary on many places say "Persian Nizaris" and on page 187 (A Short History of the Ismailis) he speaks about Persian national motives in Hassan's revolt. Still, it isn't any proof of his Persian ethnicity either. Regarding Lewis' book The Assassins, fact that Qom was one of first centres of Arab settlement in Persia isn't any kind of proof that he was Arab as User:Hugoo_B concluded, neither is proof that it was Arab-only city. Here is quote from Iranica: [9]

"The population amounted to 50,000 inhabitants at the most and consisted of Persians and Arabs who had adopted the Persian of the time (Ebn Ḥawqal, p. 362; Drechsler, p. 198, n. 956) as their language and many social customs from the Persians, whose proportion was probably smaller than the Arabs."

Qom was mixed city of Persian-speaking Arabs and Persians, neither Arab as User:Hugoo_B claimed, or Persian-only as SomeGuy1122 stated. The same goes for Kufa, also mixed city. Lewis don't call Hassan as an Arab and that's only important. There isn't any scholar of Ismaili studies which call him either Arab or Persian, it simply can't be known for sure. As for non-professional books which do, "Arab" implies Muslim, and "Persian"/"Iranian" for geographic region. So disputing about ethnicity is childish.--109.165.172.48 (talk) 20:36, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

That explains why you removed the word "Arab" from a referenced quote? Even the link shows what I have written to be correct. "His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad b Ja'far b. al-Husayn b. Muhammad b al-Sabbah al-Himyari, a Kufan Arab...." [10].

The Eagle's Nest: Ismaili Castles in Iran and Syria, Peter Willey, page 24. [11]

Whatever Daftary's motivations, meanings or intent, we as editors can not use what is not said to produce an opinion, that is original research. However, Daftary and Willey clearly state that Hassan-i Sabbah's father was of Arab origin. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

It does explain, because I searched for Daftary's book in my library, found first about Ismailites and opened it, and saw quote without "Arab". Since book is avaliable online it confirms that my edit wasn't disruptive. And no, you didn't also quote wrong because in other book it mentions "Arab", but in four other works by same author that's not the case - same quote doesn't contain it. Since I didn't find it in search I assumed you were wrong, and since you saw it in other book you assumed my edit was tendentious. So please stop accusing me of "removing from referenced quote", because I may ask why did you among six similar quotes chose only one which contain Arab word. But no, I don't assume bad faith, and there's no original research about anything I have said. We can put that Hassan's father was "Kufan of apparently Arab origin" and his "claims of Yamani origin" (with references to both Willey and one of six Daftary's work), but inserting "Arab Nizari" or "Persian Nizari" in article introduction is pure original research because no source explicitly state such thing about Hassan-i Sabbah. Article also lacks three important facts about him: that little information is available on his early life, that primary works about his life have been lost, and that many informations about him comes from legends.--109.165.172.48 (talk) 00:22, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Sourcing and States

I'm going through and trying to research the sources behind a lot of these "citation needed"'s, and as I'm doing so I'm struck by the fact that many of the geographic boundaries are being described with modern state names, with "Iran" being used a synonym for "Persia." While there are many similarities between the two, the boundaries, both territorial and cultural, are not the same now as they were centuries ago and more modern history books tend to avoid this. Unless someone objects, as I go along I'm going to change anachronistic geography to what's in the history books (ie. Iran => Persia). The Cap'n (talk) 18:14, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Additionally, the lede is extremely brief and leaves out his violent resistance against the Saljuq Empire, his emphasis on Persian culture and general insurrectionist behavior. In short, most of the things that make him such a fascinating and important historical figure. Succinct ledes are great, but this one may be a little too succinct; it leaves the impression that Hasan was little more than a missionary. The Cap'n (talk) 17:16, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Hassan-i Sabbah

First, I would like to apologize for our edit war, and any misunderstanding which may have caused you stress.

To my case:

I assure you, I am not adding inaccuracies. I am only making a clarification. Hassan-i Sabbah was a Persian Nizari Ismaili missionary. And... Born and raised in Persia, his father was believed to be a Kufan Arab claiming Yemenite origins. My only additions were made to clarify that Hassan was indeed Persian, as stated within the page, and that there is no absolute proof of his father being a Kufan Arab or proof of Yemenite origins. As the only record in mention is a 'possible' autobiography. One never proven to have ever been written by Hassan-i Sabbah. As I said, I am only adding a clarification. 1) He is a Persian (this is stated in the page) 2) His father was believed to be a Kufan Arab (as there is no proof of the source material being an actual autobiography) No other changes were made. Consider my fixes in your next edit. I will inform Favonian of the result in the next 24 hours, as he told me to speak to you first. I hope there will be no bias or anger due to my people or myself to influence your decision, and that you will honestly consider my changes as reasonable, harmless and not inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pahlavan Qahremani (talk • contribs) 18:27, 15 August 2014‎

I see nothing which explains the change made to a referenced sentence from, "....his father was a Kufan Arab who claimed Yemenite origins", to, " his father was said to be a Kufan Arab claiming Yemenite origins", "his father was believed to be a Kufan Arab claiming Yemenite origins".

Per the source, Daftary, Farhad (September 2007). "Nizari Isma'ili history during the Alamut period". The Ismā'īlīs: Their History and Doctrines. Cambridge University Press. p. 311.;

"His father, 'Ali b. Muhammad b. Ja'far b. al-Husayn b. Muhammad b. al-Sabbah al-Himyari, a Kufan Arab claiming Yamani origins, had migrated from the Sawad of Kufa to the traditionally Shi'i town of Qumm in Persia". There is nothing which requires nor should state, "said to be", or, "believed to be", since the source is quite clear his father was a Kufan Arab. Anything else is simply POV wording.

According to you, "as there is no proof of the source material being an actual autobiography, actually, the Daftary source is more complete since it mentions his father, whereas the two journal sources simply state "Persian" with, as you have incorrectly stated for Arab, "no proof of the source material being an actual autobiography".

In Ḥasan-i-Ṣabbāh and the Assassins, Laurence Lockhart, Bulletin of the School of Oriental Studies, University of London, Vol. 5, No. 4 (1930), pp. 675-696, Lockhart states, Hasan was of Himyaritic descent. Which if you are going to use this source for "Persian" then equally it could be used for Arab(ie.Himyaritic). This article is clearly not an actual autobiography and is well outdated(1930).

In The Old Man of the Mountain, Charles E. Nowell, Speculum, Vol. 22, No. 4, Medieval Academy of America, (Oct., 1947), pp. 497-519, simply states, "Hassan Sabbah the Persian" and nothing else. Clearly not an actual autobiography and is also on the dated side(1947).

According to Knights Templar Encyclopedia: The Essential Guide to the People, Places, by Karen Ralls, page 130, "The medieval mission of Hassan-i Sabbah, Arab chronicler of the Crusades, to the Ismailis of Syria resulted in early European contact with the Assassins during the Crusades". Hassan is called an Arab in this source, in the same way he is called Persian in the two journal sources.

According to The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol. III, page 253, "HASAN-I KABBAH, first da'i of the Nizari Ismailis at Alamut. Hasan was born at Kumm, son of an Imami Shi'i of Kufa, 'Ali b. al-Sabbah al-Himyari.". This calls his father Himyari.

According to The Eagle's Nest: Ismaili Castles in Iran and Syria, by Peter Willey, page 24, "His father was apparently of Arab origin and had emigrated from Kufa to Qomm". Another mention of Arab with background.

So there is no reason to put "Persian" ethnicity in the lead, since the sources clearly do not give enough weight for this(2 mention Persian, without any background compared to 4 mentions of Arab ethnicity, 3 with a background). Therefore, the lead should state, "Hassan-i Sabbāh (Persian: حسن صباح‎; 1050s–1124) was a Nizārī Ismā‘īlī missionary who converted a community in the late 11th century in the heart of the Alborz Mountains of northern Persia. He later seized a mountain fortress called Alamut and used it as the headquarters for a decentralized Persian insurrection against the dominant Seljuk Turks. He founded a group of fedayeen whose members are sometimes referred to as the Hashshashin, or "Assassins"." --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:28, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

After reading all of this, I will summarize my response simply. None of these sources (the authors) are themselves reliable as they as well rely on the only account of Hassan-i Sabbah, which is his supposed autobiography. Aside from this, they often rely on what they learn from bias sources. The fact is, there is no PROOF that his father was a Kufan Arab, or that he was Yemenite. Only modern 'sources' have been referenced. Under the assumption we choose to agree on your decision on this being final, the first point of him being a "Persian Nizari Ismaili missionary" is still valid. Even stated in this very page. It is noted he was Persian (Early Life) and that he was a Nizari Ismaili missionary. All this does is combine the two in the brief description in the beginning. Also, it is often an issue in the West to refer to Muslims in general as Arab. Even well 'educated' sources. I can even quote well 'educated' authors whom refer to Rumi as a Turk or Arab, even though he was a Tajik Persian. This is not uncommon. The more you reference 20th Century Western Sources, the harder it is for me to take you seriously. In my experience, coming from a background of many historians, reading Western interpretation of Middle Eastern history is rarely that accurate. You almost want to applaud when it is. As I said, most OFTEN call any Muslim an Arab. Even Arabs do this a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.213.5 (talk) 07:43, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not function that way. Simply to state, "None of these sources (the authors) are themselves reliable as they as well rely on the only account of Hassan-i Sabbah, which is his supposed autobiography. Aside from this, they often rely on what they learn from bias sources.", is your opinion, which is original research(ie. your own personal interpretation). This we can not do in Wikipedia.

All the sources I have listed are reliable sources.

The Encyclopaedia of Islam is edited and written by academics.

Dr Farhad Daftary received his doctorate from the University of California at Berkeley in 1971. He has held different academic positions, and since 1988 he has been affiliated with The Institute of Ismaili Studies, where he is Co-Director and Head of Department of Academic Research and Publications.[12]

Dr. Karen Ralls, medieval historian, obtained her PhD from the University of Edinburgh, followed by six years as Postdoctoral Fellow, Sr. Lecturer (Univ. of Edinburgh) and Deputy Curator of the Rosslyn Chapel Museum Art exhibition (Scotland) before relocating to Oxford, England, where she continues with her specialized research at Oxford University, UCL, and other archives. Noted for her groundbreaking 12th-14th c. medieval research in particular, Dr Ralls is a specialist in the High Middle Ages period.

Since you have brought no evidence to back your opinion and have not shown any of my sources to be unreliable, I can only assume your changing of the referenced information is your own personal interpretation,(ie. original research). Therefore, this discussion is finished and the article should remain as it is. We as editors can not simply write what we want into an article, but only what the sources state(which there are 4 calling him an Arab, compared to 2 outdated ones calling him Persian). --Kansas Bear (talk) 12:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

"Kansas bear" here does not speak out of any sourced material, but only from his own imaginings. He is one of many many others in Wikipedia who have gone around Persian related articles and put absolute lies and fabrications in them. He is an Eurocentric of some sort. If wikipedia had any credibility whatsoever or any administrators who weren't as biased as him then Wikipedia would not have been the unreliable joke it is now.

No historical or political articles in Wikipedia have any reliability whatsoever, as they as mostly written by those with an agenda to conceal the truth, or put their own delusions in them. As with this guy here. Wikipedia is a den of vipers, there is no saving it. In fact it is better that it has many editors like this individual so its credibility goes down further.

Hassan-e Sabbah being an Arab is an absolute joke, and any historian worth of salt would laugh at the idea. 81.170.232.49 (talk) 10:35, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The cowardly IP that has nothing, but their own sad little personal bias. Blindly ignores the 3 quoted sources[13][14][15][16] while showing their ignorance of English, by stating, "...any historian worth of salt..", which is the moronic version of "...any historian(ie.person) worth their salt...". So along with being blind and ignorant the IP has also brought their racial agenda(as shown above). The IP has not show any of the quoted sources to be incorrect and instead has shown a childish case of whiny bitch syndrome. As with this IP here, Wikipedia has again allowed the ignorant children of the world to "play" on Wikipedia. Another example why Wikipedia should limit anon IPs from posting personal attacks, ignorant comments, and their blind racial hatred. --Kansas Bear (talk) 14:46, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Terrible English

Can someone with knowledge of the subject and who also has a decent standard of English please take care of the incomprehensible google translation stuff in the article. 1812ahill (talk) 03:16, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

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Correct transliteration of name?

The title of the page is "Hassan-i Sabbah", but the very first sentence spells his name as "Hassan-e Sabbah" and claims that the spelling "Hassan-i" is incorrect. I'm a bit skeptical of that assertion: in my experience, transliterations are seldom correct/incorrect, just better or worse. Regardless, if true the article should be renamed. Can we please get a ruling on this from an authority on Persian? 98.110.113.134 (talk) 23:48, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

The '-e' is modern Persian, whilst the '-i' is Classical Persian (and is also used in Middle Persian as well). So 'Hassan-i Sabbah' is more correct in this instance, since he lived in the late 11th-century. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:15, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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Sons of Hassan-i Sabbah

Recently a sentence about the sons of Hassan being killed was removed by an IP due to a lack of citation and it is "only alleged". I am sure there are citations to support these statements, but I am also sure they are rumors handed down. I looked for information on this and found the sons of Hassan were mentioned in the 14th century work Jami' al-tawarikh as translated by John Andrew Boyle titled The History Of The World Conqueror Vol II. Harvard University Press. This tells the complete story:

Hasan-i-Sabbah had two sons, one of whom was called Ustad Husain. Now in the castle of Alamut there was an *Alid called Zaid Hasani, who was secretly conducting propaganda on his own behalf and was on the point of putting an end to Hasan-i-Sabbah. And first he caused Husain of Qa'in, the da'i in Quhistan, to be slain by the hand of * Ahmad of Dunbavand. The murder of Husain of Qa'in was attributed to Hasan's son Ustad Husain, and Hasan ordered the execution both of his son and of Ahmad of Dunbavand. A year later, having learnt the true state of affairs, he put the 'Alid to death together with a son that he had.

Now Hasan-i-Sabbah had founded his cause and his law (nāmūs) upon asceticism, continence and 'the enjoying of righteousness and the forbidding of unrighteousness' , and during the 35 years that he dwelt in Alamut nobody drank wine openly nor put it in jars. Indeed such was his austerity that a certain person having played the flute in the castle he expelled him there from and would not re-admit him. Now his other son, whose name was Muhammad, was accused of drinking wine and he ordered him to be put to death. And he used to point to the execution of both his sons as a reason against any one's imagining that he had conducted propaganda on their behalf and had had that object in mind.

Since this was all published some 200+ years after the death of Hassan it is questionable if this should be included. I am putting this here so people can see the source of these tales. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 23:20, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Rayy/Ray

Is there a particular reason that the article uses "Rayy" instead of the standard "Ray"? The article Ray, Iran doesn't use "Rayy" at all and Rayy redirects to Ray, Iran. Some sources like Britannica use "Rayy" but this simply appears to be a choice in transliteration and is not a more ancient form of the name. Laval (talk) 12:16, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

The spelling used for the name of the article is most likely the most common name. The spelling "Reyy" is mentioned in Ray, Iran#name as an alternative spelling. I have no objection to changing it, but no desire to do it myself. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 03:19, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

why

Hassan Al-Sabah is Arab, and his lineage indicates this, and his period of activity was during the days of Arab civilization during the era of the Abbasid Caliphate. So why do you put his name and write next to it in Persian when the name was originally written in Arabic and you found this error in more than one paragraph?? This error must be corrected 109.107.224.196 (talk) 10:48, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

First things first, please provide a source for the above Arabic version. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:02, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

sources ?? its name حسن الصباح أو حسن بن على بن محمد الصباح الحميري The name of his tribe is Arabic and literally one of the most famous He mentioned his lineage in Al-Hamdhani, Ilkhanids, History of Hulagu, 258 ، It is true that he was born in what is currently called Iran, but this does not negate that he is an Arab, especially since the Arabs conquered and settled Persia during the expansion of their civilization. Rashid al-Din Sinan, one of his biographers, describes Hassan as a direct descendant of the Himyarite kings of Yemen and that his father arrived from Kufa in modern-day Iraq. By contrast, Atta Malik al-Juwayni, his other biographer, suggests that Hassan's father came from Yemen, via Kufa. All evidence proves that he is an Arab from Yemen, and as I said previously, his lineage proves that ، Even the word hashshashín is an Arabic word, and this is the name of his sect . 109.107.224.196 (talk) 16:32, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Hassan Al-Sabah is Arab

True, but MOS:ETHNICITY.

his period of activity was during the days of Arab civilization during the era of the Abbasid Caliphate.

At that time, the Abbasid Caliphate was a small puppet state of the Seljuk Empire, and before that the Buyid dynasty.

So why do you put his name and write next to it in Persian when the name was originally written in Arabic and you found this error in more than one paragraph?? This error must be corrected

"The circumstances of the Nizaris of the Alamut period were drastically different from those faced by the Ismailis living within the Fatimid state. From early on, the Nizari Ismailis were preoccupied with their revolutionary activities and survival in an extremely hostile environment. Accordingly, they produced military commanders rather than theologians and jurists addressing different intellectual issues. Furthermore, adopting the Persian language, instead of Arabic, as the religious language of their community, the Nizaris of Persia and adjacent eastern lands did not have ready access to the Arabic Ismaili literature produced in earlier times" - p. 302, Daftary, Farhad (2007). The Isma'ilis: Their History and Doctrines. Cambridge University Press. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Where did you come from adopting the Persian language?? And let us not forget that his actions and the operations he carried out in the Levant and Egypt, and where they come from, are that they did not have access to Arabic literature if they were basically under the rule of the Arabs and Hassan al-Sabah himself was an Arab and he carried out his operations in the Arab countries??? and The Seljuks conquered Baghdad, the capital of the Abbasid Caliphate, and placed a new Abbasid caliph under their authority. The Abbasids continued to hold the title of caliphate. and The Nizaris are a sect of Ismaili Shiites, named after Nizar al-Mustafa Lidin Allah ibn Ma’d al-Mustansir Billah, who is from the ibn Ma’d family, who are also Arabs. Do not make excuses and talk about matters or say unrelated matters in order to justify the obvious falsification of the information presented in Wikipedia. 37.220.118.244 (talk) 08:10, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Read what people say, the sources are there. So far, your entire claims are solely based on your own interpretation, which is a clear case or original research.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:26, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

My own claim?? In my first response, there is evidence that you are the one speaking based on your own interpretations, and give me one thing that is wrong in my words! Unlike you, there are literally many mistakes, and I mentioned and talked about them, and there is not a single mistake in my words and what I say based on research. What is really funny is your denial of the fact that Hasan al-Sabah is Arab, and his lineage proves that he is Arab, and in the end you state my own claims??! Although the sources do not confirm my words and deny yours 37.220.118.244 (talk) 08:42, 16 November 2023 (UTC)